(12)
Q.-Had Alves anything to do with the Rent Roll ?
A.-Yes, that was Alves' book.
Q.-You do not know when this Rent Roll was written up--whether he wrote it up daily or weekly?
A.-No, I do not; but I find that he let it slip into considerable arrears. The column "Due for the year" could never be entered with absolute certainty because the Land Office did not send in its return for six months.
Mr. Thurburn.-Is there the same sort of thing for the taxes carried out by another man--a counterfoil and so on?
A.-Yes, the same books (books produced). The system is a little different. The receipts are written entirely through beforehand because it would take a long time writing them in when hundreds of people are clamouring to pay. The money is paid in, the receipt is chopped by the shroff, and I sign perhaps 50 of them in an afternoon and they are given to the people waiting outside. These are the receipts (produced). I can read both English and Chinese so that I can see that they are right.
The Chairman.--You think that the only way Alves defrauded the Treasury was by receiving money directly instead of going to the shroff, and then making out a false receipt which the shroff could not check because he did not understand English?
A.-I think that is one of the ways, and another way was the falsifying of the shroff's receipt. In some cases we found that he tore out receipts at the end of the book. Here is a book of receipts (produced) in which he has torn out four pages, knowing, as he did, that the requirements for the year would not get as far as that. He has forged the shroff's chop and never passed the money to the shroff at all.
Q.-That is the way in which he embezzled the whole of the amount?
A.-Yes.
Q.-When he embezzled only a part he falsified the receipt?
A.-Yes.
Q.-He got the shroff to sign for a smaller amount?
A.-He falsified the receipt after it came from the shroff.
Q.-First of all Alves made out a receipt. One half was in letters for a larger amount than the figures?
A.-I don't know what he did with the letters.
Q.-You say that he would be able to fill in in letters a larger amount than the figures and as the shroff could not read letters he chopped for the figures he saw underneath?
A.-Yes.
Mr. Bird.-You do not think the shroff could have been in collusion?
A.-I do not think so. I have not seen that he has displayed any uneasiness to be examined, and I have not heard of any suspicious circumstance. He is secured by a Chinaman and nothing has reached my ears about him being uneasy about him.
Mr. Thurburn.--Alves would not have forged the shroff's chop if he had been in collusion with him?
A.-No, I should think not.
Q.-Is the Auditor supposed to be there once a week, or at any stated time?
A.-He is there from day to day very often, and then it happens that he may be away for a few weeks, and then up again for several days.
Mr. Bird.-He could do as he pleased? He had no stated hours?
A.-He is his own master under Somerset House.
(13)
The Chairman.-When was the first part of this book (Treasury Rent Roll) supposed to be written up?
A.-It ought to be made up with the rest.
Q.-As soon as you got the Rent Roll from the Land Office?
A.-There used to be a calculation made at the end of the book, in some of them at all events. It was pasted in the end and showed whether the book differed from the Rent Roll as supplied by the Land Office. There were two columns showing whether that was caused because our books were more or less with references to the reasons.
Mr. Thurburn.-It seems to me that the real reason these defalcations were not discovered is owing to a want of balancing. First of all the Auditor should have checked the receipts with the amount that should have been paid.
The Chairman.-The Rent Roll is the basis of everything. What he ought to have done was to check the receipts with the amounts there.
Mr. Thurburn.-You know that for the year there is $192,000 due, there is no swindling about that. That is due at a certain period, say January 1st, then if at the end of three or six months you compared the amount of what ought to have been paid with the cash you have received, the balances would show whether there had been any defalcation. You know how much you have received because it is in the Bank.
A.-We could not cook this book if it was properly examined.
Q.-Although swindling might go on during the three months, or any given number of months, it would certainly be found out where it was when a balance was taken.
A.-When the book was balanced at the end of the year it ought to have been found out.
The Chairman.--Mr. Freire examined it before, did he not?
A.-Yes. I think the 1887 book is in Mr. Freire's signature and Dr. Stewart's.
Mr. Thurburn.-Mr. Nicolle ought to have detected this.
The Chairman.--Yes, you have the amount that ought to be received, you also got what you have received.
Mr. Thurburn.-The account ought to be exactly balanced periodically.
[(To Hon. N. G. Mitchell-Innes) Alves, I suppose, has not pleaded guilty so his trial will have to go through before we ask him any questions?
A.-He would have pleaded guilty, but he has been got at and is going to plead not guilty.]
At this stage the Commission adjourned its sitting until 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
Upon resuming, Cheung Wan Chung, was called.
The Chairman.-What is your name?
Witness.-Cheung Wan Chung.
Q.-What are you?
A.-I am shroff in the Treasury.
Q.-And your duties are to receive sums paid for Crown Rent?
A.-Yes.
Page 673
(12)
Q.-Had Alves anything to do with the Rent Roll ?
A.-Yes, that was Alves' book.
Q-You do not know when this Rent Roll was written up--whether he wrote it up daily or weekly?
A.-No, I do not; but I find that be let it slip into considerable arrears. The column "Due for the year" could never be entered with absolute certainty because the Land Office did not send in its return for six months.
Mr. Thurburn. Is there the same sort of thing for the taxes carried out by another man--a counterfoil and so on?
A. Yes, the same books (books produced). The system is a little different, The receipts are written entirely through before hand because it would take a long time writing them in when hundreds of people are clamouring to pay. The money is paid in, the receipt is chopped by the shroff, and I sign perhaps 50 of them in an afternoon and they are given to the people waiting outside. These are the receipts (produced). I can read both English and Chinese so that I can see that they are right.
The Chairman.--You think that the only way Alves defrauded the Treasury was by receiving money directly instead of going to the shroff, and then making out a false receipt which the shroff could not check because he did not understand English?
A.-I think that is one of the ways, and another way was the falsifying of the shroff's receipt. In some cases we found that he tore out receipts at the end of the book. Here is a book of receipts (produced) in which he has torn out four pages, knowing, as he did, that the requirements for the year would not get as far as that.
He has forged the shroff's chop and never passed the money to the shroff at all.
Q-That is the way in which he embezzled the whole of the amount ?
Yes.
Q-When he embezzled only a part he falsified the receipt?
A.-- Yes.
Q-He got the shroff to sign for a smaller amount?
A. He falsified the receipt after it came from the shroff.
Q.--First of all Alves made out a receipt. One half was in letters for a larger amount than the figures ?
A.--I don't know what he did with the letters.
Q.--You say that he would be able to fill in in letters a larger amount than the figures and as the shroff could not read letters he chopped for the figures he saw underneath?
A.---
Yes.
Mr. Bird. You do not think the shroff could have been in collusion?
A.-I do not think so. I have not seen that he has displayed any uneasiness to be examined, and I have not heard of any suspicious circumstance. He is secured by a Chinaman and nothing has reached my ears about him being uneasy about him.
Mr. Thurburn.--Alves would not have forged the shroff's chop if he had been in collusion with him?
A.-No, I should think not.
Q.--Is the Auditor supposed to be there once a week, or at any stated time? A.--He is there from day to day very often, and then it happens that he may be away for a few weeks, and then up again for several days.
Mr. Bird. He could do as he pleased? He had no stated hours ? A.-He is his own master under Somerset House.
( 13 )
The Chairman.When was the first part of this book (Treasury Rent Roll) supposed to be written up
2
A.-It ought to be made up with the rest.
Q.
-As soon as you got the Rent Roll from the Land Office ?
A.-There used to be a calculation made at the end of the book, in some of them
at all events. It was pasted in the end and showed whether the book differed from the Rent Roll as supplied by the Land Office. There were two columus showing whether That was caused because our books were more or less with references to the reasons.
the Land Office Rent Roll did not reach us in time and we had to go on the last year's
assessment.
Mr. Thurburn.-It seems to me that the real reason these defalcations were not discovered is owing to a want of balancing. First of all the Auditor should have checked the receipts with the amount that should have been paid.
The Chairman.-The Reut Roll is the basis of everything. What he ought to have done was to check the receipts with the amounts there.
Mr. Thurburn.-You know that for the year there is $192,000 due, there is no swindling about that. That is due at a certain period, say January 1st, then if at the end of three or six months you compared the amount of what ought to have been paid with the cash you have received, the balances would show whether there had been any defalcation. You know how much you have received because it is in the Bank.
A.-We could not cook this book if it was properly examined. Q---Although swindling might go on during the three months, or any given number of months, it would certainly be found out where it was when a balance was taken.
A.--When the book was balanced at the end of the year it ought to have been found out.
The Chairman.--Mr. Freire examined it before, did he not?
A. Yes. I think the 1887 book is in Mr. Freire's signature and Dr. Stewart's. Mr. Thurburn. Mr. Nicolle ought to have detected this.
The Chairman.--Yes, you have the amount that ought to be received, you also got
what
you have received.
have
Mr. Thurburn.-The account ought to be exactly balanced periodically. [(To Hon. N. G. Mitchell-Innes) Alves, I suppose, has not pleaded guilty so bis trial will have to go through before we ask him any questions?
A. He would have pleaded guilty, but he has been got at and is going to plead not guilty.]
At this stage the Commission adjourned its sitting until 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
Upon resuming, Cheung Wan Chung, was called.
your name
?
The Chairman.-What is Witness.-Cheung Wan Chung. Q.--What are you ?
A.-I am shroff in the Treasury.
Q-And your duties are to receive suns paid for Crown Rent? A.-Yes.
673
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